Nocturne Table of Contents and Personal Masterlist
My Old Attempt at a ThematSic Analysis
General Concepts of Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne
Character Analyses of . . .
Hikawa
Yuko Takao
Isamu Nitta
Chiaki Tachibana
Demi-Fiend
Christian Kabbalah References:
The Qliphoth References (From Debunking Series)
Personal Theories and Arguments:
The Manikins represented Fascism in its most pathetic form
My Opinion Piece on the Musubi Route
Why Hijiri is probably either Aleph or Mormon Jesus Christ
What TDE Raidou Route Means and Why it is my favorite
The Axiom / Great Will is probably some form of Brahman
The script translation differences were apparent to me immediately upon exiting the first dungeon in the game. I’m absolutely loving the changes thus far. I’m still playing it; I can’t really say it is worth it at its current state and the current price point sadly. The PS4 version to me is a 2/10 Remaster of a 10/10 game. The script translation is fantastic, but the outsourced development team didn’t fix all the bugs. They really need to fix the issues like crashes between terminals (and once during the losing screen) when facing the Four Horsemen in an optional quest for the hardest ending of the game. I hope there are patches within the coming six months so I can give it a better score thus far. It’s my favorite game of all-time and it deserved better than what the Japanese developers delivered; I don’t know what the developers (the outsourced studio Atlus hired in this case) were thinking, but the way the way Atlus Japan and Atlus West have gone about the marketing of what is probably their finest legacy has really made me lose all respect for them. There are even rumors of yet another Persona port coming out by E3 time, presumably P5 Royal for Xbox and Steam. I guess we know where their attention and interest have been for a long while now. I’m no longer excited for SMTV and I put slightly more blame on the Japanese company side than the Western one, but there is blame to go around. Nocturne’s HD Remaster deserved better.
Anyway, here’s what I found on careful exploration of Asakusa pre- and post-Futomimi speech:
- I spent time going through the before and after dialogue of Asakusa during the Futomimi cut scene where he proclaimed he wanted a world without suffering for Manikins, it may seem innocuous at first, but the dialogue around the entire town makes it clear that the Manikins were supporting a racial supremacist ideology, which is textbook fascism. Supporting their race as the supreme one while others suffer.
- The Demons who were living in Asakusa lived there in peace prior to the Manikins emigrating. They specifically say, like Titan, that all they want is peaceful co-existence, but the Manikins distrust them and dislike them prior to Futomimi’s speech.
- Futomimi’s speech – directed only towards Manikins – suggests he wanted a world for only Manikins. The town’s dialogue changes then give greater depth and make it clear that what they specifically want is a world without demons or humans at all. They want demons either enslaved and wiped out and humans wiped out so they can take the Power of Creation for themselves. The dialogue makes it clear they’re indoctrinating their children to follow a mindset of people being “more like them” and rallying around enslaving demons and then wiping out humans and demons.
- While it could be argued the NPCs are “just a couple of people” the whole point of the dialogue of those couple of people is to show the general atmosphere, culture, and beliefs of an area and give greater clarity to the worldbuilding. As such, we’re meant to understand it to mean that Futomimi has rallied the vast majority of the Manikins into this mindset. A lot of this was not in the PS2 version and seemed to have been whitewashed, but evidently Futomimi was a fascist cult leader. The dialogue with the Manikins at Mifunashiro clarifies that many of them just wait outside of the chamber where Futomimi meditates and ask him what to do instead of doing things for themselves. Futomimi is indeed an authoritarian supporting racial supremacy for the Manikins. Perhaps even a short critique by Atlus of the concept of saviors and prophethood.
- Perhaps the two most interesting aspects to consider: Futomimi always talks about the Mantra as if the Manikins successfully rallied an escape, when the truth is that a hybrid who is half-human and half-demon – you, the Demi-fiend – broke them out and freed them from a prison where they were being tortured and Hikawa, a human, annihilated the Mantra, thus ending their servitude in Ikebukuro. Yet, there is no concern whatsoever for your circumstances when they talk of creating a world for Manikins only where humans and demons are either enslaved or disposed of completely. The last intriguing point is that Futomimi himself said in Kabukicho that he could only see the Near-Future, yet the Manikins believe that he can see the future. In other words, they didn’t understand that Futomimi’s powers were limited to events that were already close to happening. This may be a metaphor for the Manikins being incapable of long-term planning and may relate to Nietzsche’s themes of the Last Man. They don’t know where they’re going, don’t know what to do, they think they’ve discovered happiness, and have no real meaning. I’ll have to re-read Thus Spoke Zarathustra to be sure (I’m already seeing a LOT of parallels with the others; Hikawa especially) and replay Nocturne more, but the use of illusions like race and obedience to a cult leader to establish meaning in life certainly aren’t pro-individualistic in ideals.
As for where I got these images and proof I checked over the NPCs, an hour-long video of me exploring the areas and talking to the NPCs, if anyone thinks I’m lying.
Here are the pieces of evidence in question:
Demons already Living in Asakusa wanted Peaceful Co-Existence
Cultish and indeed fascistic governing system whereby Futomimi is worshipped as Supreme Leader with some metaphoric conflation with Messiahs and Prophethood.
Futomimi declares his ideology of a World only for Manikins in the nicest of Propaganda terms.
Fascist Ideology proliferating after the speech. Fascist Old Man.
Fascism taught to their children
Fascist ideology proliferating after the speech. Encouraging the slavery over other races. Fascist Woman.
Fascist Gatekeeper
It’s possible that Manikins represented an allegory for fascism in its most distilled form: Pathetic, harmful to others when set free, never useful for anything the world needs except as a form of exploitation by stronger powers, never willing to confront their own mistakes, and attempting to abuse and exploit the stronger people to elevate themselves due to their own inferiority complex. A world of “equality” by dragging down the strong to their level and abusing them or just wiping them out so there is only them.
If anyone is curious, I’ve been gaming on this Youtube channel.
For more on Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne:
Kaneko Interviews:
Demon Bible, 1UP Interview regarding Nocturne (Red Hot Chili Peppers as inspiration and Gnostic view of the world as inspiration for Nocturne) and Kazuma Kaneko Works III / Different Translation.
Non-SMT3 Interviews or Artbook Translations: SMT NINE Demons in Kaneko Works III (Eternal Recurrence Concept of Nietzsche referenced in Maria bio), Kaneko Works I, and Kaneko Works II.
From Atlus West: Atlus West Interview with Vice on how they translated the HD Remaster Script
Fan Content by Others
Other Blogs:
Philosophy of MegaTen Encyclopedia by Beadman
Sam Hatting’s Nietzschean themes in Nocturne (that inspired all of this)
SMT Nocturne and Space in Design by LazyMetaphors
Artemis-Maia Analysis of Amaravati and the Menorahs (that inspired my Qliphoth References) on Eirikrjs Blog
Youtube Content Creators:
SMT Theology by Kid Capes
Larrue’s Nocturne videos related to Themes and Development:
- Story of SMT Nocturne
- Lost SMT3 Nocturne’s Early Draft Concepts
- Kazuma Kaneko’s Art Team
- Learning more about Kazuma Kaneko
Deconstructing Nocturne’s Formulas by Robin and Zephyr
Rasen Bran’s Cathedral of Shadows Podcast:
Season 1, Season 2, and Season 3
Fither’s Lost Nocturne Tech Demo
The 4th Snake’s Opinion Piece on Nocturne’s Freedom Ending
Pingback: The General Concepts within Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne | Jarin Jove's Blog
Pingback: Shin Megami Tensei III Nocturne Theory: Who Was the Lady in Black? | Jarin Jove's Blog
Manikins are a metaphor for Jews.
Futomimi ideology is essentially Zionism.
I already debunked this in general concepts. Please give it a read. There was never a metaphor for anything related to the mythology of the Old Testament.
I was not referencing Old Testament.
In european/middle east/North-african anti-semitism Jews have no souls and are not really human beings just like the Manikins.
Zionism is the political-religious-ethnic reaction to this (Eretz Israel aka creation of the ethno-state of Israel,Elected People,promised land,etc etc).
The Manikins have the exact same mentality described by anti-Jews author like Voltaire:
“The Jewish nation dares to display an irreconcilable hatred toward all nations, and revolts against all masters; always superstitious, always greedy for the well-being enjoyed by others, always barbarous – cringing in misfortune and insolent in prosperity.
Voltaire ”
I don’t think Atlus Japan is racist, I think they made an allegory of Jews being a wandering nation with resentment/hatred towards other people.
They tried to be as neutral as possible by presenting both points of view (anti and pro Manikins).
There is no reference to Jewish Mythology insofar as the Manikins. Voltaire is not mentioned in Nocturne either. I reiterate to please read the General Concepts where I cover this. There’s simply no evidence whatsoever that the Manikins had any influence involving conspiracy theories about Jewish people. It’s also rather disingenuous to insist this is the case when the evidence doesn’t support it. Those forms of anti-Semitism you mentioned came directly from the teachings of Jesus Christ, in which Jesus Christ himself referred to Jewish people as devil worshippers and the latter New Testament taught that Jews should somehow all be collectively punished for Jesus Christ’s death. Prior to the rise of the narcissistic, anti-semitic, child rape cult of Christianity; the only history of Jewish persecution was of the Sassanids accusing Jewish foreigners joining their country of being spies. Anyway, please read The General Concepts. There’s no real evidence to support the Manikins being a Jewish allegory.
I never said that Voltaire is mentioned in Nocturne.
Manikins are Jews viewed by antisemites.
I know this because I come from a very antisemite country where Jews are seen as soulless people with no arts,no true religion,no science etc.
There are even “theories” accusing them of being made of mud from cemeteries and
graveyards.I’m not talking about christian hostility toward jewish religion but about racism.
You said:”Futomimi’s speech – directed only towards Manikins – suggests he wanted a world for only Manikins.”
“[…]to follow a mindset of people being “more like them” and rallying around enslaving demons and then wiping out humans and demons.”
It’s the exact definition of Zionist extremism wanting “a Land for the Chosen People while enslaving goyim”.
That is far too general and tenuous to be evidence of what you’re claiming.
I don’t know.
I find Manikins arc eerily similar to some folkloric antisemetic stories in my country.I know there were very comparable things in medieval Germany and Lithuania.
In Nocturne they were tortured,demons were conducting experiences in Ikebekuro (sp?) prison that reminds me of WWII concentration camps.
They were almost genocided by Chiaki.
The talk a lot about their Holy place (near Asakusa I think) like the Jews about Jerusalem.
Etc etc
That… is far too general. Also, the fact Chiaki is the one to turn into an ancient Semitic God and not Futomimi is evidence that what you’re arguing doesn’t hold substance.
Well Baal is demonised in the Bible, so there is that.
There seems to be some misunderstandings (probably because of my sloppy Internet English),I’m not talking about Old Testament or anything like that,I’m trying to establish a parallel between between real life Jews,racial stereotypes,ethno-politics (zionism) etc and Manikins.
Manikins=Jews (mainly before WWII), I know this seems far-fetched but I think it’s very plausible if you have some knowledge of History and zionism.
It’s not plausible precisely because the mythology and history has absolutely no resemblance. They don’t even free themselves like in the fantasy story of Moses, the Demi-fiend frees them. I think you’re buried in your own narrative and refuse to acknowledge anything that goes against that narrative.
There are resemblances, I already showed them.
Futomimi is a prophet destined to free them,messianism(the world of Manikins will come),holy land,racial connotations wich are the EXACT tropes of anti-semetics themes,etc etc there are more…
Of course Nocturne is a fiction it’s not a 1:1 copy of the Bible or jewish history.
You don’t agree with my arguments and it’s fine, but sorry no I’m not buried in my own narrative.
No, you’re buried in your own narrative. I already debunked all of that in General Concepts, the fact you repeatedly insist you are correct and refuse to read the counter arguments by clicking a link to the page speaks for itself. You only want to hear yourself.
Ok this is my last post.
I’m sorry but you have debunked nothing in the link you provided.
I only see your own interpretation and analysis which again is perfectly fine.
You also don’t seem to understand what fascism really is.
To be fair Futomimi’s views could pass for what the general public perceive as fascism when taught by public education and mass media.
Adieu.
You have provided no counter argument at all.
Update: Also, upon checking my stats, you never even clicked the link, so you flat out lied to live in your own narrative instead of taking the time to read any information that disconfirmed your narrative.