I first want to say, that I actually enjoyed listening to most of this discussion and as a critique of Charvaka philosophy specifically, I think they made salient points. It’s when they conflated Utilitarianism and Hedonism with Hindu Atheism that I strongly disagree.

I decided to watch this based on the perspective that the two men would have solid arguments for what they meant. I watched it to the entirety and I do think they bring up some valid points, but they seem very confused on a basic precept that made the discussion on Atheism specifically to be somewhat pointless. I think they may have made a compelling argument for Charvaka philosophy not having any Dharmic connection and just being purely an Indian materialistic philosophy, but I don’t think they understand Atheism at all. Atheism isn’t just “Statement of No Lord” / Nirīśvaravāda and most Atheists don’t define themselves in that way. It is mainly this, which is right in Samkhya Sutras commentary by Medieval Hindu philosopher, Aniruddha:

It is not just “Statement of No Lord” but also “Statement that the Lord is not Provable.” which is also Atheism.

There’s also this portion that seems like a total self-contradiction of the entire purpose of the video with how you titled it:

 

33:08 – 38:40 Given all you said here, seems like you deliberately made a misnomer for clicks and accept that Mimamsa and Samkhya accept Hindu Atheism, you just don’t want it to be called “Atheism” because you associate it with the sense-perception of Westernization and Christianity. You couldn’t be more wrong, by the way. Atheism is the fatal cyanide pill that has destroyed 1/3^rd of Christianity in just twenty years and will probably end Christianity within twenty more years. Christianity abhors Atheism.

The way I perceive this issue is twofold:

1. You confused Atheism with Hedonism and Utilitarianism, which is not the same thing at all. Atheists like Sam Harris having useless utilitarian thinking doesn’t mean that most Atheists support utilitarian viewpoints or find them favorable. Ashish made a great counterpoint that most Atheists would probably agree with, which is in opposition to utilitarian principles where the ends justify the means. Moreover, utilitarianism and hedonism have problems similar to Machiavellian thinking once it becomes the ends justifying the means, even if for a nebulous greater good.
2. You confused your Islamization of Hinduism for fighting against Secular and Christian moralizing.

The reason the Charvakas no longer exist in India is because Islam almost certainly slaughtered every man, woman, and child who was a Charvaka just as they did the Iranian Atheists (Zindiqs) of Ancient Iran. Atheists are still persecuted and beheaded – read this again: Atheists are still beheaded – in Islamic countries even now. You’re not fighting against Adharma; you’re supporting it by re-establishing Islamist bigotry upon Indian philosophy. The way you described how to view Charvakas was exactly the same type of bigotry and hate that Islamists have viewed Hindus for over 800 years. Did you not notice that? What makes this patronizing superiority of yours any different than how Islam treated Hindus? Please seriously think about that. By the way, your view on hedonism being the natural state is also completely wrong and based upon ignorance (tamas). Many years ago, a rather barbaric research study in Russia upon infants had found that leaving babies alone and not teaching them anything, only providing sustenance for them, had only left them vacant and blank. It didn’t cause them to become selfish like you seem to think. They were just blankly staring and it spooked the staff. That’s the real default state: nothing.

I view myself as a Hindu Atheist because I literally cannot decide if I should follow either Samkhya or Vedanta more; I subscribe to a mix of Samkhya and Mimamsa’s darshans. After reading the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, I’d say you’re wrong even about the Charvakas and I don’t think most of the people commenting on your video even understand what is going on in the West. Christianity is dying. I don’t know why I have to keep repeating this point: Christianity probably won’t even exist within 20 years from now. Seriously take the time to re-read that and internalize it. Christianity has no future. The New Atheist movement is killing the Christian God.

How many of you have actually read Hindu scriptures? Because it’s getting annoying having to hear and see Hindus suffering tamas constantly parrot: “WE HAD NO ATHEISM! IT’S A CHRISTIAN / ENLIGHTENMENT INVENTION!” – Have you read even the first two chapters of Adi Shankara’s commentary of the Bhagavad Gita where he explains in-depth on the modifications of the mind and why even sense-perceptions are an illusion? Have you read Krishna’s views on the Bhagavad Gita where he says all paths lead to him? Have you learned anything about Samkhya and Mimamsa philosophically? It doesn’t seem like any of you have ever done that. Samkhya sutras with Aniruddha’s commentary does have an entire section where he thoroughly dismantles and strikes down the illogic of believing in Ishvara (God) based on the six Pramanas as you can see above.

Its origins are Indian Materialist and Dharma. Read Samkhya and Vedanta and explain why this is not supporting Atheism. You won’t be able to do it, because both philosophies do support atheism.

Let me see if I can work this out: You believe that our Vedic traditions which teaches us the world is maya (illusion), that we should use Pramana systems and we can pick and choose the pramanas, and that everything we see, hear, touch, taste, smell, and – within Vedanta – the modifications of how we perceive reality within concepts that we have in our minds are also illusions with sense-objects towards physical objects and sense-perceptions of the reality around us… have no basis in atheistic thought? Are you listening to yourselves? It’s spelled out in Samkhya and made quite clear within the philosophical depth of Vedanta that “Atheism” that statement that “The Lord is not provable” is valid within Hindu tradition. Explain why this is wrong when my readings of the Upanishads, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, the Bhagavad Gita, several sections of the Mahabharata, the Samkhya-Karika, and especially Vedanta philosophy in its discourse on the Bhagavad Gita all explain that the position “Statement that the Lord is not Provable.” is a valid position to have in Vedic tradition? And if you’re so ceaselessly upset by the term “Atheism” I just use it for shorthand so my friends in America don’t get confused, that’s literally the only reason.

Now, historically, it may have begun as separate with the Charvakas, but after 100-years of dominance, Charvakas slowly dwindled into Buddhism, Jainism, and – almost certainly – went back to Vedic traditions since by 500 BCE Samkhya was arguing the concept of God couldn’t be proved to be true. That is why Hindu Atheism is valid. It’s also older than most 9^th century Hindu philosophies that others support to my understanding. You can’t claim it was not a group, because the Paribbajaka existed according to the evidence and their successors likely suffered genocide by Islam similar to the original Buddhist texts being lost to history with only the earliest Pali canon available.

For what it’s worth, most Western psychology and self-help books are a disappointment to me: Dharma has never disappointed me and frankly has so much more depth and value to me that I don’t think most Hindus understand they genuinely have nothing to fear from Enlightenment values or Christian morality “contaminating” Hinduism at all. Christianity is merely a prop held-up by the dying strains of imperial and racial arrogance. Roman philosophy is making a comeback in the West, because Christianity is so devoid of any intellectual rigor or depth. Do you all really think a 1000-year old boorish lunatic with a God complex had any hope of overtaking Dharma? Please read that carefully, because it seems to me that Hindu theists have less confidence in Dharma than we Hindu Atheists. If you want to say I’m wrong, then please prove it with scriptural basis and the Pramana logic system, which I find astoundingly useful and informative.

So many people are fascinated by Hindu philosophy that they’re literally using it to make breakthroughs in modern neuroscience and pretending those breakthroughs are only from Buddhism, when it is Hindu philosophy that is mainly behind the groundbreaking scientific research in modern neuroscience. My issue is Hinduism isn’t getting due credit when it deserves it:

Let me also put it to you this way; you’ve all done amazing research on Pakistan’s problems. Do you ever imagine the possibility that Pakistan will ever outpace India in any serious way, shape or form? It’s the same with Islam, which is already neutering in Indian society. Fearing Islam or Christianity manipulating Dharma is like fearing Pakistan will overtake India’s GDP, that’s how laughably absurd I find such claims. You’re all following ways to fix problems and improve India for the future, they’re following the teachings of an illiterate desert warlord and breaking apart to stay consistent with 7th century Middle Eastern social standards.

You are all fearing a “contamination” when this is literally converting people to Dharma, albeit mainly Buddhism. I have to be very upfront here and ask you all: Why does it seem to me that I, a Hindu Atheist, have more confidence in Dharma than you, a Hindu theist? This is what it honestly seems to me after seeing all this repeated hysteria time after time. On a more positive note, you both made very good arguments about following ritualized traditions and how Western philosophy books fail implementation, because they have no ritualized traditions. However, in Western countries, it’s more individualized and there’s far less people on the roads so I adjust my Dharma accordingly.

Following one’s Dharmic duties traditionally meant Casteism and Casteism has been thrown out by over 80% of modern India according to Pew Research statistics, it seems fair to say that Hindus now reinterpret Dharmic duties as selfless service to patriotic service to their fellow countrymen and country, which is the real origins of the supposed “Nationalism” that ignorant Western corporate news agencies complain about. I subscribe to that same idea for the United States of America and I better understand what that means from Lord Krishna’s words when the most grotesque and inexcusable abuses towards innocent children have been discovered by my fellow countrymen, which is why I’ve started a petition for a nuclear first strike for what was done to the most vulnerable and innocent of US society.

I’m a Hindu Atheist, I subscribe to Samkhya and Vedanta philosophy and just use the term “Atheist” to be more straightforward since it is specific to their atheistic arguments because it’s annoying to get too pedantic with my friends, and Dharma has never disappointed me. My Dharma is selfless service to the people I care about. As a Hindu and – because I live in a more individualized society – I focus on my own personal dreams goals when I’m not serving Dharmic duties of doing the best I can, with what I have, to selflessly help others as outlined by Lord Krishna’s philosophy in the Bhagavad Gita.